I must say I find this whole discussion
very interesting. To stumble across this two years later is eye
opening and I can only imagine what other archives are out there.
It is to be sure an absolute human trait that some will always expect
the worst in people or just cause trouble to cause trouble. For
the most part everyone posts very good analysis jere and its worth a
full read. Ideas create the world. As as I continue to
profit from the Never Was page (yeah right...LOL) to my own ends
(ahem...yes saracasm), I know somewhere out there the majority of you
actually get it. Now onto the archive:
<><><><><><><><><><><><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<>><><><><><><><><><>
From: Zathrus (Izathrus@attbi.com)
Subject: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-17 18:30:22 PST
Any comments on this site?
http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
Zathrus asked:
<<Any comments on this site?>>
Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting from memory
here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that there are many
other TV producers who can say as much.
One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able to write
around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing time off for
other projects and still tell his story.
In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in point is the
episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that he'd
originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by herself.
Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her rescue.
Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me.
Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more tragic
figure.
Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the Sinclair character
evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta was a more
effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story that did
happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
Jan
well, you did ask....:-)
jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
> Zathrus asked:
>
> <<Any comments on this site?>>
>
> Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
>
> JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting from memory
> here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that there are many
> other TV producers who can say as much.
>
> One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able to write
> around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing time off for
> other projects and still tell his story.
>
> In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in point is the
> episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that he'd
> originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by herself.
> Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her rescue.
> Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me.
> Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
> served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more tragic
> figure.
>
> Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the Sinclair character
> evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta was a more
> effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story that did
> happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
>
That being said, I think it would have been interesting if a couple of
story arcs had played out with the original characters. It would have
been very effective to deal dramatically with the disappearance of
Catherine Sakai, rather than have Sheridan show up with his wife's
disappearance already a _fait accompli_.
Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
romantic involvement.
Again, I loved B5 the way it turned out. "Might have beens" aren't
very productive, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.
"Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>... <snip>
> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> romantic involvement.
>
Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
<<<Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.>>>
There was certainly a suggestion of such.
1--The scene where Talia spends the night w/ Susan and wakes up in her bed.
2--Talia's (the "bad" Talia's) mockery of Susan, which implies that she used
Susan's love to get secrets out of her or generally to get closer to the
command staff.
3--Then there's the more explicit "I think I loved Talia," the "thing you've
never told anyone" which Susan shares w/ Delenn.
They aren't girlfriends, but there's certainly some sexual tension there,
and they do share a bed at least once. Maybe they were simply "bed friends"
but even that's a little more than "just friends." It's a sort of first
step to becoming lovers, in my book.
Of course, Talia's bad personality was "outed" by Lyta directly afterwards,
so we never saw what might happen.
Jenn
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>[Talia and Ivanova] aren't girlfriends, but there's certainly
>some sexual tension there, and they do share a bed at least
>once. Maybe they were simply "bed friends" but even that's a
>little more than "just friends." It's a sort of first step to
>becoming lovers, in my book.
Usually, depending on the circumstances. But in this particular case,
it seems fairly clear that there's some kind of romantic/sexual
involvement between Talia and Ivanova. Being "bed friends", i.e.
starting with cuddling in bed together without having sex, is IMO a
really nice way to start a relationship (using "relationship" in the
loose sense, i.e. any romantic relationship, not necessarily a primary
one). It seems rather difficult to arrange things that way, though.
IME it's harder to be "bed friends" first with a different-sex partner
than it is for two men, and I'd guess that it would also be easier for
two women than for a man and a woman. This probably just reflects how
society is at the moment, at least largely.
Matthew
[large para. about "bed/friends" and sexual relations]
>>>>This probably just reflects how
society is at the moment, at least largely.>>>
Matthew, you've hit on a great problem. In the B5 timeframe, presumably,
some social mores have changed (think about the difference between 20th
century and 18th century people!). Along with the change in customs, the
ways of "signaling" behavior/intent/etc have probably also changed. But to
"show" the story, the author has to use "signals" that people here-and-now
will recognize. A real challenge for the storyteller.
Assume, hypothetically, that in B5 time, it's common for same-sex friends to
share a bed (without sex) to express the warmth-extent of their friendship.
Then, you want to give just a "hint" that Talia/Susan have become such close
friends that they decide to share a bed? How do you do that?
1--show a brief bedscene (like the one in the ep) and risk the viewers
thinking "sex"!!
OR
2--introduce a lot of narrative explanation for the new custom
Neither is ideal.
If you want to assume a LOT of cultural drift, then the more burdensome
discussion you have to introduce, and the less freely you can
"suggest"things by a glance, a facial expression, an empty bed, etc etc etc.
Because the viewers won't know what's being "suggested."
Think how much narration there is to "explain" teep
culture/customs/relations with the rest of society. We have to be told
about the gloves, about their rules, about sex for teeps, etc. JMS does it
well, but it means that he can't just "hint" at nuances of teep behavior
very well.
So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I guess we should
assume that sex relations and courtship rituals are about the same in B5
time and now.
Jenn
In message <af2fcj$17na@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, "Raven Woman"
<HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote on Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:38:17 -0400:
[...]
>
> If you want to assume a LOT of cultural drift,
[...]
...which is a bad idea in any *good* SF. Anything that is different
from our current society, technologically, culturally or whatever,
should be explicitly expounded. Thems the rules, like in detective
fiction, where all the clues available to the sleuth have to be
available to the reader/watcher. Otherwise, you can end up using
technobabble to get out of impossible situations.
All fiction is to some extent a comment on humanity as it is now, so
no author wants to change too much.
--
Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew, you've hit on a great problem. In the B5 timeframe,
>presumably, some social mores have changed (think about the
>difference between 20th century and 18th century people!). Along
>with the change in customs, the ways of "signaling"
>behavior/intent/etc have probably also changed. But to "show"
>the story, the author has to use "signals" that people here-and-now
>will recognize. A real challenge for the storyteller.
>
>Assume, hypothetically, that in B5 time, it's common for
>same-sex friends to share a bed (without sex) to express
>the warmth-extent of their friendship.
That might be a nice idea for different-sex friendships also. Of
course, in either the same-sex or different-sex case, it would only
apply to situations where both persons were comfortable with it. So,
there'd be some friendships where it didn't apply; it'd probably only
apply to fairly close friendships, for a start. I guess that it would
be a good middle ground in between platonic friendship and sexual
involvement, which does seem like somewhat of a false dichotomy.
<snip>
>So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I
>guess we should assume that sex relations and courtship rituals
>are about the same in B5 time and now.
I agree entirely. However, I wasn't actually talking about this, and I
think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. I apologise for my part
in the misunderstanding if the way I structured my post was ambiguous.
I wasn't even talking about Talia and Ivanova, or B5, for most of my
last post; other than the first two sentences, nothing I said in my
last post had anything at all to do with B5. Rather, I was talking
about dating issues IRL. The reason I made the "This probably just
reflects how society is at the moment, at least largely" comment was
that I was saying that it could be changed.
My point is that, with the way society is at the moment, often it's
hard (especially so with a different-sex partner) to take the physical
side slowly when you're dating. The idea of just being "bed friends"
for a while first is very appealing (for me, anyway), but often hard
to achieve in practice. I think it's easiest for two women, because if
one of them said she wanted to wait a while before having sex, it
would probably be better understood. OTOH if a *man* says he wants to
wait a while before having sex, it sounds unrealistic due to
stereotypes about gender roles. Men are generally expected to always
want sex and not to have any emotional needs to take things slowly;
it's a bit like how men aren't supposed to cry, and all that.
Read the rest of this message... (27 more lines)
> >So unless we got background explanations (which we didn't) I
> >guess we should assume that sex relations and courtship rituals
> >are about the same in B5 time and now.
>
> I agree entirely. However, I wasn't actually talking about this, and I
> think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. I apologise for my part
> in the misunderstanding if the way I structured my post was ambiguous.
snip snip
>
> Am I making sense here?
>
> Matthew
No, I probably wasn't following. I'm more interested in issues of
storytelling than dating, so I must'a just picked out what I wanted to see.
At any rate, the original poster was protesting that Ivanova/Talia didn't
have a relationship, and I was arguing why we have to interpret "evidence"
as parsimoniously as possible--ie. assume an empty bed means what an empty
bed means now, narratively speaking. Unless other customs have been
introduced.
Sorry--
Jenn
From: Matthew Vincent (warlock@es.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-07-01 22:38:04 PST
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I'm more interested in issues of storytelling than dating, so
>I must'a just picked out what I wanted to see.
*nods* yeah, that's understandable. I'm kinda the other way around, I
think, in that I'm far more interested in the social issues that B5
makes reference to than I am in B5 itself. If it was just a Sci-Fi
show to me, there's no way I'd be spending all this time posting here.
>At any rate, the original poster was protesting that Ivanova/Talia
>didn't have a relationship, and I was arguing why we have to
>interpret "evidence" as parsimoniously as possible--ie. assume an
>empty bed means what an empty bed means now, narratively speaking.
I agree entirely. It seemed so obvious to me that Ivanova & Talia
*were* romantically involved, that I figured I'd go on to discuss
something different since that issue had (IMO) already been sorted.
Btw, in response to someone else's comments in the thread regarding
Talia's feelings for Ivanova, I'd imagine that the sleeper personality
couldn't invent romantic feelings altogether. Rather, Talia already
had romantic feelings for Ivanova prior to the sleeper personality
playing on them.
>Sorry--
>Jenn
It's alright. It is easy to misunderstand people on the net, when all
we have to go by is verbal communication.
Matthew
CaptJosh <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
: "Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net>
wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
:> involved with Byron, with Talia as his
loyal "disciple" would have
:> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
:> romantic involvement.
:>
: Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no : romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
JMS says otherwise. Watch it again. ;-)
Claudia
-- "here's a random factoid that probably isn't
actually of interest to anyone but me, but it's connected to this post
somehow, like a brain fart off a brainstorming tree. whoops, that was
too much buildup, because it isn't actually all that interesting. now i
can't say it." -- Susannah Mandel
In message <aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de>, "CaptJosh"
<captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote on Wed, 19 Jun 2002
12:57:48
-0700:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
> > jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
> > Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned
for Ivanova
> > and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
would have
> > had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
> > involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would
have
> > taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
> > romantic involvement.
> >
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
Certainly not my interpretation that they "were merely friends",
though as it was implied rather than explicit, YMMV.
-- Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:57:48 -0700, "CaptJosh"
<captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no >romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command staff tells Delenn a secret
as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she loved
Talia.
CL
>
>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command staff tells Delenn a secret
>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she
loved
>Talia.
>
Ivonava says "I think" she did, in which case it was always my
assumption that
it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship (always
approaching, never arriving...)
WRW
In article <20020620225502.02625.00000100@mb-mp.aol.com>,
WRWhite963 wrote:
>>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command
staff tells Delenn a secret
>>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she
loved
>>Talia.
> > Ivonava says "I think" she did, in
which case it was always my assumption that
> it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship
(always
> approaching, never arriving...)
That's a strange way of seeing it. Does having sex with someone you
think you might love constitute proof of that love? I don't think so.
Sex doesn't equal love, or vice versa. (Or maybe I misunderstood your
meaning?)
In other words, Ivanova's "I think" isn't revealing in this regard, one
way or the other. I think they had sex--at the very least they slept
together ("slept together" as in "lay asleep in the same bed"), as
indicated by Talia's reaching out in her sleep to Susan--and then being
surprised when she sees the latter isn't there.
They had a good thing going, and then Psi-Corps had to go and ruin it
(by messing with Talia in the past). Figures. I also think it's a pity
the relationship wasn't allowed to go that far before the very episode
Talia was written out of the series. It's great that it got into the
series at all, but the fact it wasn't fleshed out (no pun intended)
more fully makes it seem far less daring in retrospect.
And it's sad that a wholesome gay relationship is STILL considered
something too daring and gutsy for televised science fiction. Why is it
that series set in the future, series supposedly futuristic, are
consistently the most conservative series on TV at any given time?
Technologically progressive, morally conservative--that goes for the
new Treks, and even applies to the various series set in the B5
universe, although to a SLIGHTLY lesser extent.
It's a universe of boy/girl - man/woman couples, if you go by televised
science fiction. And on this score, I certainly don't (go by them, that
is).
-Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
(simoaalt@cc.jyu.fi)
Simo Aaltonen wrote:
> In article
<20020620225502.02625.00000100@mb-mp.aol.com>, WRWhite963 wrote:
>
>>>Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the
command staff tells Delenn a secret
>>>as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that
she loved
>>>Talia.
>>>
>>Ivonava says "I think" she did, in which
case it was always my assumption that
>>it was never brought to fruition. An asymptotic relationship
(always
>>approaching, never arriving...)
>>
> > That's a strange way of seeing it. Does
having sex with someone you > think you might love constitute proof
of that love? I don't think so. > Sex doesn't equal love, or vice
versa. (Or maybe I misunderstood your > meaning?)
> > In other words, Ivanova's "I think" isn't revealing in this
regard, one > way or the other. I think they had sex--at the very
least they slept > together ("slept together" as in "lay asleep in
the same bed"), as > indicated by Talia's reaching out in her sleep
to Susan--and then > being surprised when she sees the latter isn't
there.
> > They had a good thing going, and then Psi-Corps had to go and
ruin it > (by messing with Talia in the past). Figures. I also think
it's a pity > the relationship wasn't allowed to go that far before
the very episode > Talia was written out of the series. It's great
that it got into the > series at all, but the fact it wasn't fleshed
out (no pun intended) more > fully makes it seem far less daring in
retrospect.
> > And it's sad that a wholesome gay relationship is STILL
considered > something too daring and gutsy for televised science
fiction. Why is it > that series set in the future, series
supposedly futuristic, are > consistently the most conservative
series on TV at any given time? > Technologically progressive,
morally conservative--that goes for the new > Treks, and even
applies to the various series set in the B5 universe, > although to
a SLIGHTLY lesser extent.
> > It's a universe of boy/girl - man/woman couples, if you go by
televised > science fiction. And on this score, I certainly don't
(go by them, > that is).
> > -Simo Sakari Aaltonen-
> (simoaalt@cc.jyu.fi)
> >
Don't forget that when Marcus and Franklin go to Mars, they are
travelling under the guise of newlyweds on their honeymoon, and nobody
bats an eye about it. I thought THAT was very telling... When gay
marriage is so normal that no one comments on it...
(and I always LOVED the way Marcus played on it. It cracks me up every
time)
-Wendy of NJ
"Chibi-Light" <erythrite@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d112d04.2935891@news.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:57:48 -0700,
"CaptJosh"
> <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
> >
> >Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't
you sharing? There was no > >romance between Talia and Ivanova.
They were merely friends.
> > Wha? In, season 3 (I think) the command
staff tells Delenn a secret
> as part of the rebirth ceremony and Ivanova tells her that she
loved
> Talia.
>
This is worse than the K/Sers in Star Trek fandom. Love isn't
necessarily romantic in nature!
According to CaptJosh <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com>:
> This is worse than the K/Sers in Star Trek
fandom.
You have GOT to be kidding. No it's not.
-- Bitwise, Andrew. &
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in message
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de...
"Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message
news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc
that JMS had planned for Ivanova
>> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
would have
>> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
>> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would
have
>> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
>> romantic involvement.
>
>Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
>romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
You're joking, right? When were they friends? They fought each other
all
the time and then had a sleepover.
Jim
From: Kerry Casey (kcasey@bom.gov.au)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-20 21:28:57 PST
>"James Bell" <jamesb@naxs.com> wrote:
> >"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
> >>"Paul McElligott" <mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote:
> > >>jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote: <snip>
> >> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for Ivanova
> >> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would have
> >> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of Ivanova
> >> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> >> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> >> romantic involvement.
> >
> >Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> >romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
>
> You're joking, right? When were they friends? They fought each other all
> the time and then had a sleepover.
>
>
The first time through, I never saw the "tension" between Talia and
Susan as anything other than friends. It's not until I read the
newsgroup that I realised that there was an understated attraction
between them. However, when showing B5 to a cousin who'd never seen it
and knew nothing of it, after the first few scenes between Susan and
Talia, she said "Hah, lesbian love interest!"
Kerry
--
Kerry Casey
kcasey@bom.gov.au
From: Ryan Pearman (rpearman@chem.columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-21 17:56:25 PST
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? There was no
> romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely friends.
Yikes.... unlike that bed scene just before Talia goes Postal, or Ivanova's
confession to Delenn......
--Ryan
Paul McElligott wrote:
> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
>
>>Zathrus asked:
>>
>><<Any comments on this site?>>
>>
>>Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
>>
>>JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting
from memory
>>here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that
there are many
>>other TV producers who can say as much.
>>
>>One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was
able to write
>>around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and
needing time off for
>>other projects and still tell his story. >>
>>In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in
point is the
>>episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said
that he'd
>>originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by
herself. >>Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is
instrumental in her rescue. >>Personally, I thought that that
episode made Garibaldi much more 'real' to me. >>Another was when
Stephen Furst needed time off for another project. This
>>served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even
more tragic
>>figure.
>>
>>Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the
Sinclair character
>>evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that
Lyta was a more
>>effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the
story that did
>>happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
>>
>>
> > That being said, I think it would have
been interesting if a couple of
> story arcs had played out with the original characters. It would
have
> been very effective to deal dramatically with the disappearance of
> Catherine Sakai, rather than have Sheridan show up with his wife's
> disappearance already a _fait accompli_.
> > Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned
for Ivanova
> and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he would
have
> had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
> involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would have
> taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's previous
> romantic involvement.
IIRC, didn't JMS say that Ivanova was going to be Byron's squeeze if
she was still in S5?
> > Again, I loved B5 the way it turned
out. "Might have beens" aren't
> very productive, but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.
> >
(and I still enjoy teasing my brother in law, who's named John
Sheridan, and telling people to spell my last name "like the Captain on
Babylon 5, *not* the hotel chain" <G>)
-Wendy of NJ
Having read through the rest of the thread, I had to come back and
reply to
this one with 100% agreement. I'm sure there are plenty of other
mighta-beens and shoulda-beens that idle speculation could produce, and
plenty of other stuff Joe would have like to have done, or done
differently,
that isn't quite so "obvious".
As it is, we got an incredible five years, one that its creator is
satisfied
with. What more needs to be said?
"Jan" <jbonetati@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com...
> Zathrus asked:
>
> <<Any comments on this site?>>
>
> Sure. Why worry about might-have-beens?
>
> JMS has said that the story that got told was at least (quoting
from memory
> here) 85-90% of the story he started out to tell. I doubt that
there are many
> other TV producers who can say as much.
>
> One of the amazing things about the B5 story is that Joe was able
to write
> around things like actors leaving and breaking bones and needing
time off for
> other projects and still tell his story.
>
> In some ways, it may have even made for a better story. Case in
point is the
> episode where Claudia Christian broke her foot. JMS has said that
he'd
> originally planned for Ivanova to get out of the predicament by
herself.
> Instead, he had to write where Garibaldi is instrumental in her
rescue.
> Personally, I thought that that episode made Garibaldi much more
'real' to me.
> Another was when Stephen Furst needed time off for another
project. This
> served to illustrate Londo's isolation which made him an even more
tragic
> figure.
>
> Yes, I think that it would have been interesting to see the
Sinclair character
> evolve more onscreen. That's balanced out by my opinion that Lyta
was a more
> effective character than Talia. Either way, I appreciate the story
that did
> happen and can't worry too much over what might have been.
>
> Jan
> well, you did ask....:-)
>
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message
>> news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same
one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the
dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal
"disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and
Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her
in bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms
said they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had
something more than friendship going on (he may have said more than
that but I'm too tired to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies
mad at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.0206191549.24e4bc15@posting.google.com:
> msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> > As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season
5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how
intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking
of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have
been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I
wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't
been
> in the planning stages.
> >
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections
in real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would
make a nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into
season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with
its conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced
approach to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a
strict adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to
be made into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
"Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> Any comments on this site?
>
>
> http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
>
Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their entire
work
in their heads down to the most finite detail.
Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire symphony
in
his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other hand,
had
to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he felt he had
it
just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical genius of
either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth to
compose
just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's 9.
JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots that he
originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes due to
unseen
pressures; sometimes for really stupid reasons; sometimes just as minor
concessions to the "money-men"; but just as often changes came about
because
jms himself realized he had made a mistake, and/or certain characters
or
story threads just weren't going anywhere, or gelling the way they
needed
to.
But, he did something almost completely unprecedented in that he
decided to
carry on a continuous dialogue with the show's fans before, during, and
after its production.
i.e. He respected his fans so much as to really listen to them and
constantly evaluate what he was doing as a result. Kind of like
stand-up
comedy: YOU may think your joke is hilarious - but if the audience
isn't
laughing, stop telling the joke.
Now, a caveat to that for the more reactionary types - jms works very
hard
not to dumb down his writing. And I would NEVER accuse him of pandering
to
the whims of the audience. On the contrary, my point is that he
respects
his audience. And he understands the difference between legitimate
artistic
integrity and self-righteous dogmatism. i.e. He is man enough to
recognize
when something just ain't working.
And THAT'S where the power of strong creative control is great. When
you
have a show written by committee or a revolving door of guest writers,
it is
Read the rest of this message... (40 more lines)
There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned the
story,
was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the series, or
was
it Sheridan as we could see?
David Williams <dwilliams298@attbi.com> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:
ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > Any comments on this site?
> >
> >
> > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> >
>
> Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
>
> OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply
that
> this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a
tremendous
> amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the
choir.
>
> It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their
entire work
> in their heads down to the most finite detail.
> Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire
symphony in
> his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other
hand, had
> to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he felt
he had it
> just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical
genius of
> either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth to
compose
> just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's 9.
>
> JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots that
he
> originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes due to
unseen
> pressures; sometimes for really stupid reasons; sometimes just as
minor
> concessions to the "money-men"; but just as often changes came
about because
> jms himself realized he had made a mistake, and/or certain
characters or
> story threads just weren't going anywhere, or gelling the way they
needed
> to.
>
> But, he did something almost completely unprecedented in that he
decided to
> carry on a continuous dialogue with the show's fans before,
during, and
> after its production.
> i.e. He respected his fans so much as to really listen to them and
> constantly evaluate what he was doing as a result. Kind of like
stand-up
> comedy: YOU may think your joke is hilarious - but if the audience
isn't
Read the rest of this message... (65 more lines)
"Svetislav" <svsol@t-online.de> writes:
> There's one question that i keep thinking
about: When JMS planned
> the story, was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end
of
> the series, or was it Sheridan as we could see?
I think it's pretty clear that he originally intended Sinclair to be
the leading actor throughout the series. But things change for many
reasons and this is not a problem. JMS has given (at least) two
different reasons for the change. I'm sure they are both right in
their way.
-K
Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came
along
some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
turned out ok, though.
Jim
"Svetislav" <svsol@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:aen35k$rfl$06$1@news.t-online.com...
> There's one question that i keep thinking
about: When JMS planned the story,
> was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the
series, or was
> it Sheridan as we could see?
>
>
> David Williams <dwilliams298@attbi.com> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:
> ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> >
> > "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > > Any comments on this site?
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> > >
> >
> > Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your
point?"
> >
> > OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to
imply that
> > this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a
tremendous
> > amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the
choir.
> >
> > It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive
their entire work
> > in their heads down to the most finite detail.
> > Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an
entire symphony in
> > his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the
other hand, had
> > to struggle and fight with every bar of his music before he
felt he had it
> > just right. Yet, I don't think anyone would deny the musical
genius of
> > either of them. And MOST composers would give their eye-teeth
to compose
> > just 1 symphony as good as any of Mozart's 43 or Beethoven's
9.
> >
> > JMS has stated MANY times for the record that ideas and plots
that he
> > originally conceived were changed along the way - sometimes
due to
Read the rest of this message... (97 more lines)
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:19:18 -0400, "James Bell"
<jamesb@naxs.com> wrote:
|Sheridan was not planned from the absolute
beginning. The idea came along
|some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
|Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either.
It
|turned out ok, though. Eh, dunno about that. "War Without End"
happened more or less when it was supposed to (JMS let
slip the fact that we'd see the flip side of B^2 in season 3 before
O'Hare
left). That pretty much means Sinclair wasn't going to be around for
the
ending, so someone had to be stepping into his shoes. Or you have to
pull another character out of your ass to become Valen
and/or completely reinvent Sinclair's importance to the Minbari. This
can be
done, of course, but at that point you're completely off the map, IMO.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) hefferman@comcast.net
#include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"It's better some times if we don't get to touch our dreams." -- Harry
Chapin
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
And actually, when you view *all* of the interactions between Talia and
Susan in the context of Talia's sleeper personality, Talia is
definitely putting the moves on Susan, trying to get close to her from
almost day one. Although it's interesting... if she wanted to get close
to the top of the command structure, she could have definitely had an
easier target in Garabaldi...
-Wendy of NJ
Kerry Casey wrote:
>>"James Bell" <jamesb@naxs.com>
wrote:
>>
>>>"CaptJosh"
<captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>jbonetati@aol.com (Jan)
wrote:
>>>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>Also, I have no idea if the story
arc that JMS had planned for
>>>>
> Ivanova
>
>>>>and Lyta for the 5th Season would
have been the same one he would
>>>>
> have
>
>>>>had if Talia Winters had still be
around. But the dynamic of
>>>>
> Ivanova
>
>>>>involved with Byron, with Talia
as his loyal "disciple" would have
>>>>taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
>>>>romantic involvement.
>>>>
>>>Ok, what are you smoking and why
aren't you sharing? There was no
>>>romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were merely
friends.
>>>
>>You're joking, right? When were they
friends? They fought each other
>>
> all
>
>>the time and then had a sleepover.
>>
>>
>>
> > The first time through, I never saw the
"tension" between Talia and
> Susan as anything other than friends. It's not until I read the
> newsgroup that I realised that there was an understated attraction
> between them. However, when showing B5 to a cousin who'd never
seen it
> and knew nothing of it, after the first few scenes between Susan
and
> Talia, she said "Hah, lesbian love interest!"
> > > > Kerry
> > --
> > Kerry Casey
> kcasey@bom.gov.au
> Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
> > > >
In article <3D131D18.9020405@hotmail.com>, voxwoman@hotmail.com
says...
> And actually, when you view *all* of the
interactions between Talia and > Susan in the context of Talia's
sleeper personality, Talia is definitely > putting the moves on
Susan, trying to get close to her from almost day > one. Although
it's interesting... if she wanted to get close to the top > of the
command structure, she could have definitely had an easier target >
in Garabaldi...
Garibaldi has a tendency to communicate less with the women in his life
than with his enemies.
-- Adam
Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend.
No. Don't think so because of Garabaldi in "Gropos" turning down
Dodger.
Still think that Lise would have, or memory of her, would not let him.
But
then like most men it doesn't stop him from looking.
"Voxwoman" <voxwoman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D131D18.9020405@hotmail.com...
> And actually, when you view *all* of the
interactions between Talia and
> Susan in the context of Talia's sleeper personality, Talia is
definitely
> putting the moves on Susan, trying to get close to her from almost
day
> one. Although it's interesting... if she wanted to get close to
the top
> of the command structure, she could have definitely had an easier
target
> in Garabaldi...
> -Wendy of NJ
>
CaptJosh wrote:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>
>>jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in message news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
>>
> <snip>
>
>>Also, I have no idea if the story arc
that JMS had planned for Ivanova
>>and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same one he
would have
>>had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the dynamic of
Ivanova
>>involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal "disciple" would
have
>>taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and Talia's
previous
>>romantic involvement.
>>
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
go watch the eps again... there was a kiss that wasn't onscreen, and
Talia's touching the empty spot in the bed next to her... It's the
episode where Lyta exposes Talia's alternate personality and she's off
the show... Susan and Talia were more than friends.
-Wendy of NJ
>
Voxwoman wrote:
> go watch the eps again... there was a kiss
that wasn't onscreen,
That, I'm afraid, is an urban myth. It's just bad shot continuity.
But JMS and both the actresses have said quite plainly that there
was an affair between the characters.
-- John W. Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://pws.prserv.net/jwkennedy/Double%20Falshood.html
[posted and mailed]
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message
>> news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same
one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the
dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal
"disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and
Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her
in bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms
said they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had
something more than friendship going on (he may have said more than
that but I'm too tired to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies
mad at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
[posted and mailed]
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.0206191549.24e4bc15@posting.google.com:
> msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> > As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season
5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how
intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking
of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have
been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I
wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't
been
> in the planning stages.
> >
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections
in real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would
make a nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into
season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with
its conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced
approach to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a
strict adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to
be made into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
[posted and mailed]
"CaptJosh" <captjosh@phantos.subspacelink.com> wrote in
news:aeqn90$8srtk$1@ID-107133.news.dfncis.de:
> "Paul McElligott"
<mcelligott6@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c926b0f.0206180948.2340d7c@posting.google.com...
>> jbonetati@aol.com (Jan) wrote in
message
>> news:<20020617230310.02209.00001264@mb-ch.aol.com>...
<snip>
>> Also, I have no idea if the story arc that JMS had planned for
>> Ivanova and Lyta for the 5th Season would have been the same
one he
>> would have had if Talia Winters had still be around. But the
dynamic
>> of Ivanova involved with Byron, with Talia as his loyal
"disciple"
>> would have taken on a interesting dynamic, given Susan and
Talia's
>> previous romantic involvement.
>>
> Ok, what are you smoking and why aren't you
sharing? There was no > romance between Talia and Ivanova. They were
merely friends.
>
Hmm, let's see, Talia rolls over and notices Ivanova is not next to her
in bed. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that scene. Although jms
said they did not film a kissing scene, he did not deny they had
something more than friendship going on (he may have said more than
that but I'm too tired to look up the references).
Quit advocating drug use, you'll get the alcohol and tobacco companies
mad at you.
Nuke - 198 weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
[posted and mailed]
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) wrote in
news:fe8c080f.0206191549.24e4bc15@posting.google.com:
> msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> > As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season
5 seemed
> very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how
intense
> Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking
of
> Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have
been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I
wonder
> if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't
been
> in the planning stages.
> >
That would be a yes. Jms stated he had originally wanted intersections
in real time to be the season 4 finale. Ending on such a downer would
make a nice cliffhanger. The retaking of Earth would be 6 episodes into
season 5.
I like the idea of introducing the telepath colony mid season 4 with
its conclusion in season 5. This would allow a better and less forced
approach to the storyline.
If any maniac ever tries to novelize the Babylon 5 story, I wonder if
Warner Brothers would allow a smoother approach such as that or a
strict adherence to the TV series. Perhaps, as Babylon 5 is begging to
be made into a 5 part novel.
Nuke - 198 pound weakling
-- Listen to the Black Atheist Avenger: www.InfidelGuy.com
Atheist Radio on the Internet: www.AtheistNetwork.com
"Potential is nothing if not realized." Charles Applin
From: James Bell (jamesb@naxs.com)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-19 17:53:42 PST
"Dennis Francis Heffernan" <hefferman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:s700huo7jpfadfnh8pp1octhaft2gcbr7j@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:19:18 -0400, "James Bell" <jamesb@naxs.com> wrote:
>
> |Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came along
> |some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
> |Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
> |turned out ok, though.
>
> Eh, dunno about that.
Well I think it turned out ok. YMMV.
> "War Without End" happened more or less when it was supposed to (JMS let
> slip the fact that we'd see the flip side of B^2 in season 3 before O'Hare
> left). That pretty much means Sinclair wasn't going to be around for the
> ending, so someone had to be stepping into his shoes.
>
> Or you have to pull another character out of your ass to become Valen
> and/or completely reinvent Sinclair's importance to the Minbari. This can be
> done, of course, but at that point you're completely off the map, IMO.
We don't know that War Without End happened the *way* it was supposed to,
though. It may have been written differently. (I can think of ways to pull
off WWE and keep Sinclair in the present. I can also think of ways to do
Season 4 and 5 without Sinclair or Sheridan and without introducing a new
character.) It isn't as if WWE was already written during season one. When
Sinclair left and Sheridan came in, the way the arc was to be presented
changed radically. I am sure that JMS got to tell his story but *the way*
the story got told was significantly different from the original plan. This
isn't a bad thing. Nevertheless it is what happened.
You don't have to agree. It's ok to be wrong. :)
Jim
Oh i see, thanks for letting me know guys
James Bell <jamesb@naxs.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
aenj21$qht$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu...
> Sheridan was not planned from the absolute beginning. The idea came along
> some time during season one and grew from there. Since there was no
> Sheridan at first, he couldn't have been the one at the end, either. It
> turned out ok, though.
>
> Jim
>
> "Svetislav" <svsol@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:aen35k$rfl$06$1@news.t-online.com...
> > There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned the story,
> > was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end of the series, or was
> > it Sheridan as we could see?
> >
> >
> > David Williams <dwilliams298@attbi.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
> > ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> > >
> > > "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > > news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > > > Any comments on this site?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
> > >
> > > OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
> > > this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
> > > amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
> > >
> > > It is said that certain rare artists are able to conceive their entire work
> > > in their heads down to the most finite detail.
> > > Eg. allegedly Mozart could hear every single note of an entire symphony in
> > > his head before he ever put pen to paper. Beethoven, on the other hand, had
Read the rest of this message... (123 more lines)
Svetislav wrote:
>
> Oh i see, thanks for letting me know guys
We all have our theories, some with more evidence backing them than
others. But the only one who knows for sure is jms, and he isn't talking.
In article <aen35k$rfl$06$1@news.t-online.com>,
Svetislav <svsol@t-online.de> wrote:
>There's one question that i keep thinking about: When JMS planned
>the story, was it Sinclair he saw "sleeping in light" at the end
>of the series, or was it Sheridan as we could see?
I think it must have been Sinclair originally. I think
that was the original reason that Sinclair taking B4 back
looked older, and that scar on his cheek would have been
from when he goaded Kosh into taking action against the
Shadows.
I think. Only JMS knows, and he isn't talking.
I really missed Sinclair, all through the rest of the
series. Sheridan was good, but something about Sinclair
really clicked with me, in a way that Sheridan never did.
But it was quite a ride for 5 years.
--
Have you noticed that, when we were young, we were told | Mike Van Pelt
that "everybody else is doing it" was a really stupid | mvp@calweb.com
reason to do something, but now it's the standard reason | KE6BVH
for picking a particular software package? -- Barry Gehm
>
> I really missed Sinclair, all through the rest of the
> series. Sheridan was good, but something about Sinclair
> really clicked with me, in a way that Sheridan never did.
>
> But it was quite a ride for 5 years.
>
Agreeing about Sinclair. Actually, I saw them in the "wrong" order, season
2-3 first, then missed part of four and all of five, then saw them all
through in sequence. I liked Sinclair better even *after* seeing Sheridan
first.
But--I don't think JMS just "made the best of it," I think there are
advantages to having Sheridan there for the Shadow War, even if he isn't the
cutie or the intellectual that Sinclair is.
1--With Sheridan, we get to see a "typical officer" getting educated as to
the complexities of the universe. Sinclair is already a mystic of sorts,
and seems like less of a "company man" than Sheridan. Sheridan's a relative
"outsider" when he arrives at the start of season 2--certainly he's not as
familiar w/ things Minbari--which makes his POV more interesting & useful in
some ways. He's Scully to Delenn's Mulder in some ways. Doesn't
necessarily want to believe.
2--With Sheridan, we get a contrast to the
Sinclair/Delenn/G'kar/Kosh/(need-I-go-on?) spirituality of the show.
Sheridan seems like a solid, uninquisitive agnostic, and an outgoing, "plays
well with others" guy, a regular ESTJ to their (let me guess here)
Delenn--INTP
G'kar--I/E NFJ
Kosh--INTJ
Sinclair--INTP
intuitive, introverted types.
I know Myers-Briggs may be a kind of stretch here, but I just want to
illustrate that he is *totally* a different personality, which shakes up the
command staff a bit. A nice contrast.
K nuff for now.
Jenn
PS anyone want to debate my Myers Briggs classifications?? That might be a
fun topic, and I'm not entirely happy w/ them.
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> writes:
>Kosh--INTJ
Cool!, that makes me Kosh-like. *grin*
Chuen Chan c.chan@uq.net.au
---------------------------------------------------------------------
'You can prove anything you want by coldly logical reason - if you pick
the proper postulates... Postulates are based on assumption and adhered
to by faith. Nothing in the Universe can shake them.' I. Asimov
Erh? I'm (apparently) also an INTJ, but I'd never say 'Kosh like'.
>From the http://typelogic.com/intj.html website it states the following for
INTJ's,
"Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want
people to make sense"
Perhaps we need to come up with a whole new way of personality testing since
the one thing you can say about the Vorlon is that they never make any sense
themselves so how they expect other people to is beyond me! Everything else
fits though.
Jim
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:03:50 -0400, Raven Woman <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote:
>1--With Sheridan, we get to see a "typical officer" getting educated as to
>the complexities of the universe. Sinclair is already a mystic of sorts,
>and seems like less of a "company man" than Sheridan. Sheridan's a relative
>"outsider" when he arrives at the start of season 2--certainly he's not as
>familiar w/ things Minbari--which makes his POV more interesting & useful in
>some ways. He's Scully to Delenn's Mulder in some ways. Doesn't
>necessarily want to believe.
Sheridan was considered a "solid" officer and complete RA
("Regular Army") type that Clark's control freaks would want
to replace Sinclair with; They didn't catch on (until too
late) that their "tool" was more autonomous and had a mind
(and soul) of it's own.
Clark wanted to honk off the Minbari (remember, he was already
unhappy with 'em since he was dealing, albeit indirectly, with
the Shadows- who knew the Minbari were aligned with those
"Lords of Order" the Vorlons.
Sinclair had depth and curiosity and inquisitiveness that was
too easily recognized while Sheridan wasn't recognized as
having these traits- but had them in spades.
Of course there was _nobody_ on the series (excepting perhaps
the Vorlons...) who wasn't dysfunctional in some way- it's
just that one's weakness can provide a core strength, giving
a person a place to stand.
Something to google for: BlackAdderlon 59
--
John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines soup@jtan.com
- As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed above are those of John R. Campbell
alone and are seriously unlikely to reflect the opinions of
his employer(s) or lackeys thereof. Anyone who says
differently is itching for a fight!
> Delenn--INTP
>From http://typelogic.com/intp.html it states:
<quote>"A major concern for INTPs is the haunting sense of impending
failure. They spend considerable time second-guessing themselves.".<unquote>
When Delenn decides on a course of action she follows it through to the end
(eg. Drac attack, Minbari civil war, and throughout 'In the Beguinning).
<quote> An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying to convince himself
as much as his opposition. In this way INTPs are markedly different from
INTJs, who are much more confident in their competence and willing to act on
their convictions.<unquote>
Again in her dealings with the Grey Council and other major speeches I'd say
she comes across more as an INTJ than INTP.
Some reasons are perhaps:
1. The whole Minbari culture are very much like an earlier version of the
Vorlon.
2. Can we expect Alien personalitys to mirror the personality types we
define for ourselves, and has JMS written them in such ways? Really clevor
if he has, but then again we already know that!
3. How easy is it write a charactor that does not fit in to a 'standard'
personality type? Could such a charactor exist in real life?
As I neither a writer nor behavoural scientist I can't tell you but it would
be very interesting to hear other peoples views.
Jim
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Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think the
only people who know their Meyers Briggs
Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
the only ones replying.
From: Andrew Petrarca (android@hotblack.3d.gweep.net)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-24 09:00:11 PST
According to Lucas Bachmann <lucasbachmann@yahoo.com>:
> Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think the
> only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> the only ones replying.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. ;)
But then, I'm an INxP. Lucky me, I get to have all the hang-ups of both INFP
and INTP.
--
Bitwise, Andrew. &
Lucas Bachmann <lucasbachmann@yahoo.com> writes:
> Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think the
> only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> the only ones replying.
Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
-K
> > Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think
the
> > only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> > Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> > the only ones replying.
>
> Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
>
> -K
So are "IN"s the only folks who watch B5? Or who lurk around on
newsgroups??
Jenn
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> writes:
> > > Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I
think the
> > > only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> > > Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> > > the only ones replying.
> >
> > Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
> > So are "IN"s the only folks who watch
B5? Or who lurk around on
> newsgroups??
Could be. Several analyses I've seen of Myers-Briggs scores group the
NT people into a group and then talk about the I/E and P/J
differences. For what it's worth, the P score is the most expressed in
my results, and is only moderately expressed. The I is next highest,
but is only around 20%.
BTW, I've done the real thing once and taken the quickie
questionnaires (about 70 questions) several times. On the latter, I've
found that the more deliberate I am taking the test, the lower my
expressions are. Also, the closer they are to the real thing, at least
in my case.
-K
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af9t7f$22li@r02n01.cac.psu.edu...
> > > Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I
think the
> > > only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> > > Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> > > the only ones replying.
> >
> > Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
> >
> > -K
>
>
> So are "IN"s the only folks who watch B5? Or who lurk around on
> newsgroups??
I'm usually an INTJ, too. There have been times I've come out slightly
ISTJ, though. I'm a weak N. Very strong in I,T,J, though.
Jim
No, I'm an ENXP, at least according to the scoring sheet stuck in the
book (please understand me) from a long time ago...
-Wendy of NJ
Raven Woman wrote:
>>>Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I think
the
>>>only people who know their Meyers Briggs
>>>Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
>>>the only ones replying.
>>>
>>Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
>>
>>-K
>>
> > > So are "IN"s the only folks who
watch B5? Or who lurk around on
> newsgroups??
> > Jenn
> > > >
> So are "IN"s the only folks who watch B5? Or
who lurk around on
> newsgroups??
It's very strange since NT's are meant only to comprise 10% of the
population, and INTJ's only 1%!
Personnaly I consider the whole grouping of personalitys very suspect,
and
particulary the 70 or so questions you do on the web; no wonder
everyones
turning out as NT.
Jim (INTJ apparently!)
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>ersonnaly I consider the whole grouping of
personalitys very suspect, and
>particulary the 70 or so questions you do on the web; no wonder
everyones
>turning out as NT.
>
>Jim (INTJ apparently!)
Typing is very suspect the way most people use it -- most people just
take the
70-item web version (or college intro textbook version) or just read
about the
types and decide they most be the "rarest" or "coolest" type. When done
by a
professional Psychoanalyst, type is usually determined by a 500 or so
question
test and a series of interviews, and even then it is stressed that it
is not
definitive, it is only a guide to how to think about your personality,
and that
it will change over time.
OK, you've peaked my curiosity. For those of us not yet "IN" on this
conversation thread, is there any place to take your little MB test for
free? That is to say, I'm curious, but not curious enough to spend
money on
it. Certainly not the $100 or more for the tests I've seen in a quick
internet search.
-David
"Raven Woman" <HrafnWif@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:af9t7f$22li@r02n01.cac.psu.edu...
> > > Galen strikes me as an INTJ. I
think the
> > > only people who know their Meyers Briggs
> > > Personality are INTJs. Certainly we are
> > > the only ones replying.
> >
> > Nonsense. I'm an INTP.
> >
> > -K
>
>
> So are "IN"s the only folks who watch B5? Or who lurk around on
> newsgroups??
>
> Jenn
>
>
>
> OK, you've peaked my curiosity. For those of
us not yet "IN" on this
> conversation thread, is there any place to take your little MB
test for
> free? That is to say, I'm curious, but not curious enough to spend
money on
> it. Certainly not the $100 or more for the tests I've seen in a
quick
> internet search.
You can start your research from:
http://keirsey.com/
But as it's been pointed out, it's only 70 or so questions so rather a
bit
'iffy'.
You can learn about the different types from:
http://typelogic.com/
Following on from my other posting, the tester claims I'm INTJ but on
speaking to a behavorial scientist last night, he said I'm almost
certainly
not one of those. According to the web description, they tend to be
rather
'shy' (?) but the person I spoke to said the opposite, that they are
rather
'in your face' type of people so I don't see how this can fit Galen.
Jim
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Lucas
From: WhereNTear (wherentear@netscape.net)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-18 18:17:19 PST
"David Williams" <dwilliams298@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<ALyP8.83644$6m5.69983@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...
> "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > Any comments on this site?
> >
> >
> > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> >
>
> Yes, I would simply ask the site's author, "What's your point?"
>
> OF COURSE changes were made along the way! His tone seems to imply that
> this is some deep dark secret to all of us. So, he went to a tremendous
> amount of trouble to enlighten us, but he's preaching to the choir.
I view the site as more of an apologia than criticism. William
Piniarski obviously appreciates how hard it was to maintain a cohesive
storyline for 5 TV seasons, and says as much several times on his
site.
I enjoy the open speculation myself. I have often wondered about some
of the forced direction changes in the plot and what JMS originally
had in mind, but by the same token, I am glad that the Great Maker
himself has kept quite about the original plan. I remember that when
I read some of Tolkien's early notes for Lord of the Rings it
detracted a bit from my appreciation of the story. It was sort of
like seeing how a magic trick was done.
A more extreme type of "what might have been" site is the fanfic site:
http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/
What do you think of it? (warning, the final chapters aren't complete)
"Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> Any comments on this site?
>
> http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
Well the site is very... inaccurate.
--
==========================
Christian McNeill
Email: red@underground.com.au
"Christian McNeill" <christian@quicknet.com.au> writes:
> "Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> > Any comments on this site?
> >
> > http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
>
> Well the site is very... inaccurate.
Not to mention badly written. I doubt this guy can write to a
publishable standard. And he can't tell the difference between "than"
and "then", nor can he spell "Sheridan".
I know English spelling is complicated, but people who aspire to write
should double check their work. Many of us are sensitive to these
things.
(I use a different standard to judge email and news postings, which
are written quickly. Please, for those of you who don't spell well for
whatever reason, don't take offense. None is intended. Unless you
write like that on your web site.)
-K
"Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote:
>Any comments on this site?
>http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The author is
obviously trying to get attention for himself by disparaging an
existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
tactic. Among other things, the following line gives it away: "My name
is <name deliberately snipped>. I am a science fiction writer
myself..." (with the words "science fiction writer" underlined so you
can follow the link).
Matthew
warlock@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in
news:44aa4edb.0206180232.32e6bf10@posting.google.com:
>>Any comments on this site?
>>http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
> Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The author is
> obviously trying to get attention for himself by disparaging an
> existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*. Sometimes its fun to
speculate on what might have been. It's not as though there's much else
going on right now in the B5 world is there? I don't think the author was
being disrespectful or dishonest, on several occassions in the article he
mentions how much admiration he has for jms in creating the show, and how
he *did* deliver on his promises.
B5 is a unique situation in any event. Not only was it a unique show, we
as fans also gained a (sometimes unhealthy) level of inside knowledge on
its evolution through jms. The knowledge was great, insofar as it brought
show and fan together like no other show ever has (not even Star Trek
IMO), but I think it *was* a bit unhealthy in retrospect because its
difficult to enjoy & take a show at face value whilst knowing about all
the little pieces of broken glass jms crawled across carrying the
'elephant'.
One thing about the article that I did agree with was his assessment of
season 5. I'm not going to get into the 'season 5 was crap' debate,
because as far as I'm concerned there is no debate (saying that though, I
think that season 5 was a classic example of how too much inside
knowledge can ruin one's perceptions of a show). B5 was brilliant, end of
story. :-) *But* (and I have done this) it comes across as a very
different show if you watch seasons 1-4 then SiL. Not 'better' per se,
just different. It still works.
Anyway, all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion. As am
I. Neither are threats to your own beliefs about the show. We all love
jms' work! :-) There's no need to go jumping up and down about it.
Cheers,
Bil
--
_
_ // Bil Irving | Email: *Private* |
\X/ Visions Perceived Software | Web: www.visions-perceived.co.uk/ |
... "Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of
dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender."
- Citizen G'Kar, 2261
Bil <bil_irving@ntlworld.com> wrote:
: One thing about the article that I did agree with was his assessment of
: season 5. I'm not going to get into the 'season 5 was crap' debate,
: because as far as I'm concerned there is no debate (saying that though, I
: think that season 5 was a classic example of how too much inside
: knowledge can ruin one's perceptions of a show). B5 was brilliant, end of
: story. :-) *But* (and I have done this) it comes across as a very
: different show if you watch seasons 1-4 then SiL. Not 'better' per se,
: just different. It still works.
Actually I think he is quite wrong about season 5. I believe that
even if season 5 had always been coming, we would have seen the
telepaths and we would have seen Londos decline into servant of
the dark.
IMO the main difference for season 5 would have been that the
telepath story would have been started already on the 4th
season. Perhaps even during the Shadow-Vorlon war (and they might
have been useful at the time). That would have been consistent
with the way JMS likes to write - putting things up before hand
so he can slam you with a hammer. Regrettably that didn't happen
because of the way season five happened - something that jms had
pretty little control over.
I guess I'm a kind of funny critter, since I have never really
been interested in single episodes of B5 or any other series. In
B5 it was the story arc that mattered mostly, and I like the
ideas that were there for the 5th season.
Now I believe that 5th season is quite different from the seasons
2-4 mostly because jms had to create those plotlines during the
season, because he had closed all the major plotlines of previous
year and not opened others.
Simply put, the circumstances B5 was put in didn't allow for
better, which is a shame. Still I liked season 5 and wouldn't be
happy if it never was.
--
Mikko "One Ring to rule them all,
One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all
And in the Darkness bind them."
msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in message news:<aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi>...
> Bil <bil_irving@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> : One thing about the article that I did agree with was his assessment of
> : season 5. I'm not going to get into the 'season 5 was crap' debate,
> : because as far as I'm concerned there is no debate (saying that though, I
> : think that season 5 was a classic example of how too much inside
> : knowledge can ruin one's perceptions of a show). B5 was brilliant, end of
> : story. :-) *But* (and I have done this) it comes across as a very
> : different show if you watch seasons 1-4 then SiL. Not 'better' per se,
> : just different. It still works.
>
> Actually I think he is quite wrong about season 5. I believe that
> even if season 5 had always been coming, we would have seen the
> telepaths and we would have seen Londos decline into servant of
> the dark.
>
> IMO the main difference for season 5 would have been that the
> telepath story would have been started already on the 4th
> season. Perhaps even during the Shadow-Vorlon war (and they might
> have been useful at the time). That would have been consistent
> with the way JMS likes to write - putting things up before hand
> so he can slam you with a hammer. Regrettably that didn't happen
> because of the way season five happened - something that jms had
> pretty little control over.
>
As I understand it, most of Season 4 was written when Season 5 seemed
very unlikely, so the story line was compressed. Remember how intense
Season 4 was with both the end of the Shadow War and the retaking of
Earth? I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely. Also I wonder
if the Drak War would have been taken further if Crusade hadn't been
in the planning stages.
wherentear@netscape.net (WhereNTear) writes:
> I've often wondered if the retaking of earth would have been
> left until Season 5 if renewal hadn't been so unlikely.
What's to wonder?
JMS speaks <http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/084.html>:
| I don't usually comment on this, but...if I had known *with absolute
| certainty* that there would be a season 5, then season 4 would have
| ended with 418, "Intersections in Real Time." So you only pull 4
| episodes forward, really. You'll understand when you see it.
--
"I asked mom if I was a gifted child... she said they certainly
wouldn't have *paid* for me."
-- "Calvin and Hobbes", Bill Watterson
msarela@cc.hut.fi wrote in news:aepbtl$6jh$1@nntp.hut.fi:
> Actually I think he is quite wrong about season 5. I believe that
> even if season 5 had always been coming, we would have seen the
> telepaths and we would have seen Londos decline into servant of
> the dark.
Yup, almost certainly.
> IMO the main difference for season 5 would have been that the
> telepath story would have been started already on the 4th
> season. Perhaps even during the Shadow-Vorlon war (and they might
> have been useful at the time). That would have been consistent
> with the way JMS likes to write - putting things up before hand
> so he can slam you with a hammer. Regrettably that didn't happen
> because of the way season five happened - something that jms had
> pretty little control over.
Well quite. Jms said once that 'Intersections' would have been the season
4 cliff-hanger had season 5's fate been determined earlier. That suggests
to me that the whole 'end of the Earth civil war' thing would have
happened more progressively over the first half of season 5. There would
probably have been some telepath setups during this as well.
Most people's problems with season 5 seems to be that there was too much
apparent 'filler' in the first half of the season, which is
understandable given that jms had to effectively build completely new
plotlines that he hadn't had time to introduce earlier. Watching season
4, then going straight into season 5 - it really is a dramatic change of
pace. I understand completely why it was done that way, and I have no
problem with that, it just takes you back a bit.
Another example: Orson Scott Card (my favourite author) wrote the
'Homecoming' saga, a tale over five volumes. Volumes 1-4 were great, they
built the characters beautifully, told a tale that was growing in
intensity all the time. I eagerly awaited each new volume and devoured
them in a couple of days. Then book 5 ('Earthborn') came out. It was
completely different. Set hundreds of years after the original 4 books,
all the original characters were long dead. It was still a great book,
but somehow didn't fit into the rest of the saga in quite the same way as
the others did. I feel much the same about season 5. It feels great on
its own, but as a part of the whole it suffers IMO.
I know others feel a similar way. Others disagree. Your mileage may
vary...
> I guess I'm a kind of funny critter, since I have never really
> been interested in single episodes of B5 or any other series. In
> B5 it was the story arc that mattered mostly, and I like the
Read the rest of this message... (25 more lines)
>It was still a great book,
> but somehow didn't fit into the rest of the saga in quite the same way as
> the others did. I feel much the same about season 5. It feels great on
> its own, but as a part of the whole it suffers IMO.
When it aired, Season 5 suffered from a audience perspective since the
climax of the series had already occurred in our minds, with the resolutions
of the Shadow War & the Earth Civil War. Anything that came afterwards had
to feel like an letdown. Seen now in retrospect, Season 5 does have it own
logic and narrative power -- even if elements of it are completely out of
sync. I guess, for me, the real problems in Season 5 are things like the
telepaths' clothing and personality affectations, which do seem very
specifically tailored to appeal to a certain viewer demographic that perhaps
TNT was urging JMS to court. If you compare the dress & mannerisms of the
telepath resistance members from Season 2 to this new group from Season 5,
the contrast is all too apparent. Certain elements of the show appeared, in
least in my mind, to have changed and become much more formulaic. That
said, once Bryon becomes "toast" and the telepath's disappear from the
scene, the show begins to regain its form. Obviously, if the uncertainty
around the series cancellation were not a factor, I have no doubt that
Seasons 4 & 5 would have flowed a bit differently. Personally, I could have
done without the Telepath saga altogether, and would have preferred to see
JMS resolve the loose ends around Sheridan's & Delenn's appearance in
Londo's future (as foreshadowed in WWE) in Season 5...
Matt C
From: David Williams (dwilliams298@attbi.com)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-21 07:03:06 PST
"horizon" <mcarnicelli@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:iCjQ8.29131$QD2.6689435@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> >It was still a great book,
> > but somehow didn't fit into the rest of the saga in quite the same way as
> > the others did. I feel much the same about season 5. It feels great on
> > its own, but as a part of the whole it suffers IMO.
>
> When it aired, Season 5 suffered from a audience perspective since the
> climax of the series had already occurred in our minds, with the resolutions
> of the Shadow War & the Earth Civil War. Anything that came afterwards had
> to feel like an letdown. Seen now in retrospect, Season 5 does have it own
> logic and narrative power -- even if elements of it are completely out of
> sync. I guess, for me, the real problems in Season 5 are things like the
> telepaths' clothing and personality affectations, which do seem very
> specifically tailored to appeal to a certain viewer demographic that perhaps
> TNT was urging JMS to court. If you compare the dress & mannerisms of the
> telepath resistance members from Season 2 to this new group from Season 5,
> the contrast is all too apparent. Certain elements of the show appeared, in
> least in my mind, to have changed and become much more formulaic. That
> said, once Bryon becomes "toast" and the telepath's disappear from the
> scene, the show begins to regain its form. Obviously, if the uncertainty
> around the series cancellation were not a factor, I have no doubt that
> Seasons 4 & 5 would have flowed a bit differently. Personally, I could have
> done without the Telepath saga altogether, and would have preferred to see
> JMS resolve the loose ends around Sheridan's & Delenn's appearance in
> Londo's future (as foreshadowed in WWE) in Season 5...
>
> Matt C
>
My concurring opinion is that the perceived weaknesses in S5 are merely due
to the fact that it was too short and left us hanging. We all knew from day
1 that it was projected to be the final season, regardless of what happened,
so our expectations were probably ramped up a little too high. jms really
didn't have enough time to wrap everything up for us. He could only
tantalize us by telling us the first chapter of the telepath war. The same
with Londo's story, etc. Though we already know the ultimate fate of most
of the central characters, we didn't get to hear those STORIES.
On the one hand, the gist of the hanging story threads is that the story
never really ends. There's always more to tell. ie. There's no such thing
as "Happily ever after..."
But based on that, I'm really left with the feeling that he was hedging his
bets and leaving LOTS of open room for new series, feature films,
theatricals, etc.
The subsequent lack of commercial success of the franchise makes me believe
we might not see anymore B5. Let's face it, there's apparantly just not
enough of us to entice the advertisers into paying for the show or the
programmers to put it on. So we'll just have to hope that someday jms is
willing to open up and reveal what his story plans were.
Ultimately I try not to think about it too much, to realize that blithering
idiots on Jerry Springer is a bigger money-maker than well-written Sci-Fi; I
just get too depressed.
Was expecting to move, probably not going to happen soon so will finally
spring the extra $ to get Showtime.
Anxious to finally check out Jeremiah. Hope I'm not too late.
-David
>When it aired, Season 5 suffered from a
audience perspective since the
>climax of the series had already occurred in our minds, with the
resolutions
>of the Shadow War & the Earth Civil War. Anything that came
afterwards had
>to feel like an letdown. Seen now in retrospect, Season 5 does have
it own
>logic and narrative power -- even if elements of it are completely
out of
>sync. I guess, for me, the real problems in Season 5 are things
like the
>telepaths' clothing and personality affectations, which do seem
very
>specifically tailored to appeal to a certain viewer demographic
that perhaps
>TNT was urging JMS to court.
The thing that strikes me the most about season 5, at least until the
focus
shifts to the Centauri issue, is that there is a relative lack of
energy to
everything - some of the telepath episodes seemed to even duplicate
themselves
so much, they could have easily (and I think for the better) have been
condensed.
This is all amplified by the filmmaking changes - more set pieces,
lower budget
- leading to a less dynamic feeling about the show. Denoument is fine
for a
story, but usually doesn't take up the last 1/5th of the book - the
last few
episodes would have sufficed for wrapup. That said, a few episodes did
stand out, and feel almost like a return to form. Especially when the
Drazi are confronted about their hypocrisy. Lyta's
transformation into someone you'd rather not know seemed erratic - if
the
telepath arc had been wrapped up more quickly, establishing the trauma
of
seeing Byron's "sacrifice" earlier on, it would have left more time to
show
Lyta's challenges in holding together the resistance, with more
opportunities
for her to butt heads with the Alliance, and to be further alienated,
leading
more naturally to Lyta as we see her in Objects in Motion. It would
have also
added more to the feeling that she was being overwhelmed by a
succession of
incidents she wasn't prepared for, which again would have lent some
emotional
credence to her transformation.
Hindsight's 20-20, though (although not always:-)
WRW
Lyta's
> transformation into someone you'd rather not
know seemed erratic - if the
> telepath arc had been wrapped up more quickly, establishing the
trauma of
> seeing Byron's "sacrifice" earlier on, it would have left more
time to show
> Lyta's challenges in holding together the resistance, with more
opportunities
> for her to butt heads with the Alliance, and to be further
alienated, leading
> more naturally to Lyta as we see her in Objects in Motion. It
would have also
> added more to the feeling that she was being overwhelmed by a
succession of
> incidents she wasn't prepared for, which again would have lent
some emotional
> credence to her transformation.
>
> Hindsight's 20-20, though (although not always:-)
>
> WRW
>
Just so--I *love* the Londo plotline in season 5, but I wish the
telepath
plotline had told us less about the teeps on-station and their woes and
more
about the doings of Lyta/Garibaldi. All the right elements for a good
action-plot were there: Edgars Industries, Bester, Lyta, Garibaldi
(plus
his mind-block against revenge), etc. Also G'kar and his need to escape
his
"followers." If the deals between (1) Lyta and Garibaldi and (2) Lyta
and
G'kar had gone down sooner, we could have seen some action!!
Byron always reminded me of something my mother used to say when I was
14
years old and dragging around the house whining: "All over the place
like a
wet quilt."
Jenn
I would say that he did seem to be pushing his own writing, and it
did make his "opinions" seem as though they might be attention-
grabbing. It is also interesting that he seems to know so much of JMS
and yet seems to have no knowledge that JMS stated (many times, I
think) that he always had an "escape hatch" for each character in mind
at all
times.
This did seem to be flagrant self-promotion, not a legitimate B5
website
or debate. At least that is how it came across to me. -- Posted via
Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Bil <bil_irving@ntlworld.com> wrote: >>Yeah,
quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The >>author is
obviously trying to get attention for himself by >>disparaging an
existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very >>dishonest and
disrespectful...
> >Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an
*opinion*.
An opinion that's presented as fact, for the most part. >Sometimes its fun to speculate on what might have
been.
That's not the part that I have a problem with. He's doing a lot more
than just speculating here.
>I don't think the author was being
disrespectful or dishonest,
His motives were dishonest, and many of his criticisms were clearly
inaccurate, and just thrown in for the sake of criticising.
>on several occassions in the article he
mentions how much >admiration he has for jms in creating the show,
Of course he did. If he just made a whole bunch of criticisms with no
praise, he would look unprofessional. His goal was to pitch his
criticism at just the right level to attract controversy, and thus
advertise himself and his own work in the process.
>B5 is a unique situation in any event. Not
only was it a unique >show, we as fans also gained a (sometimes
unhealthy) level of >inside knowledge on its evolution through jms.
I disagree that we've gained an unhealthy level of inside knowledge.
There may have been occasional slippages, but overall I think that the
benefits of this arrangement have outweighed the drawbacks.
>One thing about the article that I did agree
with was his >assessment of season 5. [...] *But* (and I have done
this) >it comes across as a very different show if you watch
>seasons 1-4 then SiL.
Yeah, I've tried watching it that way too. >Not
'better' per se, just different. It still works.
Yeah, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. JMS always said that
season 5 was going to be a bit different, IIRC. The whole atmosphere
was made different in some ways. The important parts of the show were
Read the rest of this message... (33 more lines)
[posted and mailed]
warlock@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in news:44aa4edb.0206212305.59e4a948@posting.google.com:
> Bil <bil_irving@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site
is full of shit. The >>>author is obviously trying to get
attention for himself by >>>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi
show. I think it's a very >>>dishonest and disrespectful...
>> >>Jeez, give the guy a break! It's
an *opinion*.
> > An opinion that's presented as fact,
for the most part. >
What? The site quotes many of the postings jms himself stated in this
newsgroup. It treated the actions of all parties with respect
throughout the article. It was a much better treatment the the
unofficial guide to B5 part 2 which stated opinionated articles quite a
few too many times.
>>Sometimes its fun to speculate on what
might have been.
> > That's not the part that I have a
problem with. He's doing a lot more
> than just speculating here.
>
Mayhaps I missed something, his article itself is title what might have
been. That clearly states all that follows is speculation. He backs it
up with acts within the show and a little common sense. Where did this
guy show otherwise?
>>I don't think the author was being
disrespectful or dishonest,
> > His motives were dishonest, and many of
his criticisms were clearly
> inaccurate, and just thrown in for the sake of criticising.
>
Again, where? And where were the criticisms? He seemed to go out of his
way to complement all involved even when the person was the actress
playing Talia Winters (can't say her name, just too much pain)
>>on several occassions in the article he
mentions how much >>admiration he has for jms in creating the
show,
> > Of course he did. If he just made a
whole bunch of criticisms with no
> praise, he would look unprofessional. His goal was to pitch his
> criticism at just the right level to attract controversy, and thus
> advertise himself and his own work in the process.
>
Read the rest of this message... (60 more lines)
warlock@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in news:44aa4edb.0206212305.59e4a948@posting.google.com:
> I disagree that we've gained an unhealthy
level of inside knowledge.
> There may have been occasional slippages, but overall I think that
the
> benefits of this arrangement have outweighed the drawbacks.
I think you misunderstood slightly what I was getting at (my fault, I'm
sure). If we'd just watched the show, without the aid of the LG, jms,
this froup (in my case, the UK B5 froup), I think the show would have
had a different resonance. ISTR, jms once said something about how he
was inside the goldfish bowl, and couldn't see it from outside, or
words to that effect. 'Net connected viewers when B5 was first on
learned the ins-
and-outs of the making of the show *as* *it* *happened*. Difficult to
stay completely objective & unspoiled in those circumstances.
Re-reading that again, I don't think thats explained it very well
either. (but I'm afraid if I go back and try and figure it out, I'll
start bleeding from my ears... to borrow a quote)
>>it comes across as a very different show
if you watch >>seasons 1-4 then SiL.
> Yeah, I've tried watching it that way too.
Fun, isn't it? :-) >>Not 'better' per se,
just different. It still works.
> Yeah, which shouldn't be a surprise to
anyone. JMS always said that
> season 5 was going to be a bit different, IIRC. The whole
atmosphere
> was made different in some ways. The important parts of the show
were
> basically covered in seasons 1-4. None of this constitutes any
kind of
> amazing revelation.
Did anyone say it was a revelation? >>Anyway,
all I'm trying to say is, he's only expressing an opinion.
> He's doing more than that.
Well maybe I'm just not as familiar with the author as you, but it
seems hard (& harsh) to guess someone's true motives based solely
on a critique posted to a website, and a couple of harmless links. I
just calls 'em as I sees 'em.
>>As am I.
> You, I believe. :)
Why thank you :) >>Neither are threats to
your own beliefs about the show.
Read the rest of this message... (40 more lines)
"Matthew Vincent" <warlock@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:44aa4edb.0206212305.59e4a948@posting.google.com...
> Bil <bil_irving@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site
is full of shit. The
> >>author is obviously trying to get attention for himself by
> >>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very
> >>dishonest and disrespectful...
> >
> >Jeez, give the guy a break! It's an *opinion*.
>
> An opinion that's presented as fact, for the most part.
Yeah, that's what bugged me. Reminds me in a way of what I've always
hated
about Oliver Stone's JFK. Although I've never bought the Warren
Commission's report, I felt Stone really stepped over the line from
speculative fiction. It's been years since I saw it, but I remember
being
annoyed at the way his *theory* seemed to be presented as *fact*. And
yet,
when he was criticized for it, his answer in effect was 'It's only a
movie.'
That was particularly galling because it seemed like a cop-out, and an
attempt to have it both ways. Perhaps my memory is hazy on this... But
anyway, that was when I pretty much got over Mr. Stone and his
controversy-for-the-sake-of-it style of film-making. Natural Born
Killers
was such a tedious stomach-turner that I actually turned the video off
halfway through and returned it. Still don't know what happened. Still
don't care.
-David
"Matthew Vincent" <warlock@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:44aa4edb.0206212305.59e4a948@posting.google.com...
> Also, some of his criticisms were of a
fairly personal
> nature, and were quite false. For instance, he said that JMS was
> partially at fault over CC leaving. He also said that JMS has
publicly
> stated that he intends to post less to fans since this incident.
This
> is also quite false;
IIRC, neither of these statements are "quite false." They are probably
deceptive but not false. JMS has to bear some of the responsibility for
CC
leaving because he could have caved in to her demands and she would
have
stayed. He did the right thing, the fair thing to the show and the
other
actors. Because of that (at least partially) CC refused to re-up for
season
5. This guy seems to excell at making technically true but deceptive
statements. IIRC, JMS not only said he was going to be online less, he
actually took some time away after the incident. It wasn't so much due
to
being busy (he was always busy); he just didn't need the hassle for
awhile.
We all take breaks from the newsgroup. JMS is no different. So again,
the
guy's statement is true but deceptive. JMS didn't turn on the fans and
leave the Internet community. He just scaled back and took a breather
for
awhile. That's how I remember it.
Jim
[posted and mailed]
warlock@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote in news:44aa4edb.0206212305.59e4a948@posting.google.com:
> Bil <bil_irving@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, quite frankly I think the site
is full of shit. The >>>author is obviously trying to get
attention for himself by >>>disparaging an existing Sci-Fi
show. I think it's a very >>>dishonest and disrespectful...
>> >>Jeez, give the guy a break! It's
an *opinion*.
> > An opinion that's presented as fact,
for the most part. >
What? The site quotes many of the postings jms himself stated in this
newsgroup. It treated the actions of all parties with respect
throughout the article. It was a much better treatment the the
unofficial guide to B5 part 2 which stated opinionated articles quite a
few too many times.
>>Sometimes its fun to speculate on what
might have been.
> > That's not the part that I have a
problem with. He's doing a lot more
> than just speculating here.
>
Mayhaps I missed something, his article itself is title what might have
been. That clearly states all that follows is speculation. He backs it
up with acts within the show and a little common sense. Where did this
guy show otherwise?
>>I don't think the author was being
disrespectful or dishonest,
> > His motives were dishonest, and many of
his criticisms were clearly
> inaccurate, and just thrown in for the sake of criticising.
>
Again, where? And where were the criticisms? He seemed to go out of his
way to complement all involved even when the person was the actress
playing Talia Winters (can't say her name, just too much pain)
>>on several occassions in the article he
mentions how much >>admiration he has for jms in creating the
show,
> > Of course he did. If he just made a
whole bunch of criticisms with no
> praise, he would look unprofessional. His goal was to pitch his
> criticism at just the right level to attract controversy, and thus
> advertise himself and his own work in the process.
>
Read the rest of this message... (59 more lines)
From: Jim Royal (jimroyal@canada.com)
Subject: Re: The B5 That Never Was
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 2002-06-18 18:16:58 PST
In article <44aa4edb.0206180232.32e6bf10@posting.google.com>, Matthew
Vincent <warlock@es.co.nz> wrote:
> Yeah, quite frankly I think the site is full of shit. The author is
> obviously trying to get attention for himself by disparaging an
> existing Sci-Fi show. I think it's a very dishonest and disrespectful
> tactic.
In what sense is the site in any way disparaging? It's a fan analysis.
There's nothing insulting about it, and much of what he says
(particularly about Sinclair's truncated story arc) is quite likely
true.
--
Jim Royal <jimroyal@canada.com>
"Understanding is a three-edged sword"
http://JimRoyal.com
In article <44aa4edb.0206180232.32e6bf10@posting.google.com>,
warlock@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote:
>I think it's a very dishonest and
disrespectful
>tactic. Among other things, the following line gives it away: "My
name
>is <name deliberately snipped>. I am a science fiction writer
>myself..."
Although not a very good writer, since he doesn't seem to understand
basic English grammar:
"...and know some of the things the writer of the B5 saga, JMS, might
have went through in the process of creating and maintaining B5."
Might have went through? Give me a break. And a decent writer.
"The Cat Who Walks By Himself" <solokat@spamcop.net> wrote in
message
news:aeo02p$pvs$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> In article
<44aa4edb.0206180232.32e6bf10@posting.google.com>,
warlock@es.co.nz (Matthew Vincent) wrote:
> >I think it's a very dishonest and
disrespectful
> >tactic. Among other things, the following line gives it away:
"My name
> >is <name deliberately snipped>. I am a science fiction
writer
> >myself..."
>
> Although not a very good writer, since he doesn't seem to
understand basic
> English grammar:
>
> "...and know some of the things the writer of the B5 saga, JMS,
might have
> went through in the process of creating and maintaining B5."
>
> Might have went through? Give me a break. And a decent writer.
Yeah, I noticed that too. But decided my rant was long enough without
critiquing his grammar.
-David
"Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> Any comments on this site?
There are obvious factual errors. For instance, he claims General Hague
was
introduced in Season 4, when he actually shows up fairly early in
Season 2.
So, if he's wrong about stuff this basic, I wonder about the accuracy
of the
rest.
Matt C
Good site. I agree with much of it - but not all of it. For me, some of
the
most convincing arguments relate to the original intention of Sinclair
to be
the one main protagonist:
-Catherine Sakai filling the role of Anna easily.
-The aging in War Without End... sure, they explain it well, but I just
have
the feeling that when they filmed Babylon Squared, War Without End was
intended to mostly take place around the time of Sleeping in Light -
and
that was why Sinclair looks older.
"At the End, Go To The Beginning" indeed - Sinclair could have covered
the
same ground as Sheridan, and then jumped back in time at the end of the
series to avoid his premature death and to become Valin. True, that's a
heck
of alot for one man to do, but the evidence convinces me that this was
JMS'
intention at least at the very beginning - for maybe half of season 1
at
most.
But then again, who am I to say what JMS was thinking!
-BAMM
"Zathrus" <Izathrus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:SjqP8.235506$cQ3.9124@sccrnsc01...
> Any comments on this site?
>
>
> http://www.webcs.com/b5/neverwas.html
>
>